Session Start: Sat Jan 17 18:55:28 1998 
*** Now talking in #webdesign
 Channel is NOT moderated 
<z-Augustus> where can I get the command line options for Netscape
<Ghatten> What are you trying to do to your poor Netscape Augustus?
<z-Augustus> nothing , I saw a -h command like option in one of my programs that uses Netscape and don't know what it does
<z-Augustus> I have never seen it before
<z-Augustus> it is not in  my book
<Ghatten> Well, not being a programmer, I can't help there
<z-Augustus> OK
<z-Augustus> tks
<Ghatten> Maybe someone else does...
<Who> Looks like a good group this year
<Ghatten> Let's give it a couple of minutes before we officially start
<Ghatten> Welcome to our first office hours for HTML class everyone! Thanks for coming and we hope that we can assist you with any questions you may have.....
<z-Augustus> when will version 4 be ready
<Ghatten> Version 4?
<z-Augustus> HTML Ver 4
<z-Augustus> I heard they were working on a version 4
<Ghatten> The spec for HTML was approved in Mid-December
<z-Augustus> good
<Ghatten> It's just that it is only supported to a limited degree by the newest Netscape and MSIE browsers
<z-Augustus> I hope they can resolve the difference in sounds controls
<Who> Augie...before you start writing version 4 or using new features...ask yourself who your audience is and what your intent is...
<z-Augustus> is the tag objects supported?
<Ghatten> HTML does have a way around that...
<Who> the greatest site isn't worth a lick if only you can use it
<z-Augustus> yes
<z-Augustus> I know
<Ghatten> Yes, <OBJECT> should EVENTUALLY handle the issue Augustus
<z-Augustus> the AOL browser is no good
<Ghatten> This is fairly true Augustus...shame that
<Ghatten> Well we have a couple of questions....let's get started!
<Otter> according to the   stats on one of my   sites, most users are   still using older versions of NS and IE -- 
<Ghatten> I think we can skip moderation unless it gets really hectic
<Otter> it's important to   accommodate them
<Nan> Were we supposed to upload our notebook to our page on the web?
<Ghatten> Eventually yes Nan
<Ghatten> Not necessary this week...
<Ghatten> or next...this is to give folks time to get used to HTML before needing to figure out how to get it to the web
<z-Nan> Thanks I am not quite sure how to doit yet..this will be my first web page
<Ghatten> And I agree with Otter totally---MANY folks are still on older versions of the main browsers--it is important to not to alienate folks on a large scale by using things that are not applicable, such as lots of the new HTML 4.0 spec
<Guest7266> What do you mean put a z in front of my name?
<Ghatten> We will get you up by the end of week 4 Nan!
<Rosebud> Hello Everyone.  I've got a question (simple as it may sound!!smile) - I cannot seem to get my notebook saved as an htm file?  Any hints?
<Ghatten> Type in/nick z-Guest7266 where you just typed the message
<Who> GUEST..if you do not have a question at this time /nick z-Guest7266
<z-Nan> I hope I'm ready by then
<z-cookie> Rosebud, what program are you using
<Ghatten> What operating system Rosebud? Windows 95, 3.1 or MAC
<Ghatten> I think you will be Nan! if not you can hassle us at the webdesign@vu.org mailbox LOL
<z-Nan> LOL Ghatten..
<Zonie> If you do NOT have question, or you have asked your question, or you are going to log and not be present, put z- in front of your nick, if you are on a time limited connection (pay by the minute) put F- in front of your nick (please do not abuse this as those with the F- will be given voice first to save them money), please use the - , to change your nick type /nick z-yournick
<Ghatten> Rosebud what system are you using??
<Rosebud> Cookie, I'm using notepad in Office 97. Ghatten, I'm using ie4 & win95.  Ghatten are you the prof?
<Ghatten> One of four Rosebud
<Ghatten> The others are Who, Flamingo and Otter
<Ghatten> The other ops are our trusty staff!
<Mailman> I have a question
<Ghatten> OK Mailman hang on a sec
<z-cookie> Rosebud, you should be able to do it in notepad
<Ghatten> Saving the text file as HTML is the current question
<Ghatten> When you have the file open in notepad
<Who> Rosebud...the most common problem is not setting the Save as type option to All files(*.*)
<dddd> Rosebud are you selecting all files before you save?
<Ghatten> Select file and save as from the menu at the top
<Ghatten> and then do as Who suggests
<z-cookie> You have to type in the HTML extension
<Ghatten> Note: On Windows 3.1 you will only be able to use .htm since Windows 3.1 only accepts 3 letter extensions..
<Ghatten> and save the file as mypage.html
<Ghatten> or mypage.htm
<Rosebud> Thanks guys. I've figured it out -  I didn't put the extension in.  Now it works!
<Ghatten> Great!
<z-cookie> Good Rosebud
<Ghatten> OK Mailman...what's you question???
<Who> Chalk one up for the good guys
<Mailman> every time I open my HTML file IE always open it, I want to use Netscape
<Ghatten> Are you Windows 95?
<Mailman> yes
<Ghatten> OK
<Ghatten> Then go to one of your HTML files and right click/shift at the same time
<Ghatten> You should get the menu and one of the options is OPEN WITH
<Ghatten> Select that and you will get a selection box with a scroll
<Ghatten> Scroll down and find Netscape
<Mailman> OK
<Mailman> let me try it
<Ghatten> Once you have found it..look near the bottom of that box with the scroll options
<Ghatten> You will see a box to check
<Mailman> OK
<Ghatten> It says "Always open files of this type with this application
<Ghatten> Check it
<Ghatten> Then select Netscape from the menu
<Ghatten> The scroll list that is
<Ghatten> Now Netscape should open HTML files
<Ghatten> If it doesn't stick
<Mailman> OK, thanks a lot
<JanetBH> I just tried what you suggested Mailman try with Windows 95.  I don't have an open with option.  I have Open or Open with Word.
<Ghatten> Let me know--I know another way but it is a little more detailed
<Mailman> thanks Ghatten
<Ghatten> Try again Janet...sometimes it does not "Catch" when you shift and right click at the same time
<Ghatten> OK Kimee...go ahead
<kimee> Background colors... How do we know what the letters stands for?  Like what sequences make what colors.  Is there a web page to go to for that?
<Ghatten> Janet if it still does not work, send an email to the webdesign@vu.org address and I will spell out the other way
<JanetBH> I am opening it from within Internet Explorer.  Should I try a different path to get the right click/shift to work?
<Ghatten> Yes--try this from the Windows 95 desktop
<Ghatten> Outside of a program
<JanetBH> I have a question....Since we can't find the Paintshop book, will other resources be suggested?
<Ghatten> Okay Kimee---this is a bit beyond the class ...but the short explanation is that the letters stand for different values of Red Green and Blue.  There will be a larger explanation and links to learn as much as you can stand in lesson 2!
<Ghatten> The Paint Shop Pro book can be skipped easily ya'll
<Otter> There are a lot   of PSP tutorials on-line
<Ghatten> In the next week I will post a list of Paint Shop Pro resources ONLINE
<z-Nan> kimmee..I found a page with the letter sequences for the colors..the url is http:/ /www.infi.net/wwwimages/cell2.html
<Ghatten> One of our helpers has collected up a large list for us!
<JanetBH> Thank you, Ghatten.
<Ghatten> Are there any Mac users here?
<Ghatten> Firewalker are you on a Mac?
<firewalker9> No.
<firewalker9> I have a PC
<firewalker9> However, at the local school district I dabble in Macs.
<Ghatten> Ah---do you use a graphics program you might recommend for Mac users when you dabble?
<firewalker9> We use at the high school photo shop
<TK> Are we eligible for an Academic Discount for Paint Shop Pro as a VU Student? 
<Ghatten> Study groups can be organized by area (this makes it easier to meet) or by interest (this makes it easier to generate interest!) or if you are really lucky you might form/find a group which covers BOTH * Otter needs to find   students who use AOL --   please email me at:   Wendy@Vu.org
<Ghatten> I think that would depend on the place selling the software
<Ghatten> Some places require an academic ID for purchases
<Ghatten> with an academic discount
<Ghatten> in that case...no. 
<JanetBH> What kind of documentation is provided when we get CEUs to prove we passed?
<firewalker9> Best place to find discounted software, especially academic is at computer shows.
<Ghatten> Thanks Firewalker..that's what I suspected...
<Ghatten> That is very true Firewalker...you can get lots of discounted software there...
<Ghatten> Janet that is a question for the Registrar's Office
<Ghatten> :)
<Ghatten> Does anyone else have a HTML question?
<JanetBH> Is it best to edit our web pages from within the browser window?
<flamingo> Paint Shop Pro gives you a 30 day trial period before you have to purchase it.
<Ghatten> Unless you are in a program like Composer you would not be editing from the browser...but from inside the text editor such as Notepad
<Who> JBH...that depends on a lot of things...
<Ghatten> That's what we recommend for the class...
<JanetBH> I thought we should open Notepad from within our browser window?
<Ghatten> Usually I open Notepad from inside the folder in which I am working.
<Ghatten> Are you using IE?
<Ghatten> Sorry if you already said that...
<JanetBH> So it's easier to open Notepad from a folder on your desktop?  I am using IE 3.02 or Netscape 3.0
<Ghatten> If you are using IE and it is set to open Notepad to view source you can edit the source of the page from inside the browser window
<JanetBH> Yes, I can view source...So that may be the preferred way...
<Ghatten> (or at least that is what it works out to be...)
<JanetBH> I understand that if I use refresh or reload that any changes I make will appear.
<Ghatten> If that works for you then it is fine to do it that way
<Ghatten> Yes, you would have to refresh to see what you just edited...
<z-Augustus> but will is save it
<kimee> I have another question.
<Ghatten> You will still have to save the document!
<Ghatten> If not your editing would be lost
<JanetBH> Thank you... I knew that...
<Ghatten> Hold on a sec kimee--Wallen has a question next
<Ghatten> :)
<flamingo> Be very careful if you use View Page Source and then edit from there... sometimes you will end up with two HTML files ... one with the changes and one without the changes
<Ghatten> Some folks might not have known though..can't be too sure when folks are new
<Ghatten> :)
<Ghatten> Wallen wanted to know how to save a file from htmtemp.txt to the mypage.htm on a Mac
<Ghatten> Flamingo can you grab that one please
<flamingo> Wallen: open up your file called htmtemp.txt....
<flamingo> Then click Save As and save it with the new file name of mypage.html and click save.
<flamingo> You will be opening the file htmtemp.txt in Notepad
<nipsi> What I would like to know is I got the page on colors but it says NETSCAPE
<nipsi> color chart
<flamingo> A Mac does it pretty much the same way as a PC... sorry you will be using Simple Text on the MAC
<nipsi> Can I use this with Internet Explorer?
<Who> Most colors are same/similar...there is a page with a list of those colors that will be true on both browsers
<Zonie> >> nipsi << yes, the colors may vary just at little
<flamingo> Wallen: are you with me?
<Who> will have to look it up for you
<Zonie> those are from the HTML Reference Library FREE at the web supply page . . http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/8043/ . . under *WEB SUPPLYS*
<Ghatten> Wallen?
<nipsi> Please give me the URL of the page that I can use for colors.  Believe you gave it to me  on ICQ, but then it was cut off, I could no longer find it.
<JanetBH> Is there a protocol or netiquette that I should be aware of so as not to offend?
<Ghatten> <Wallen> Yes, Simple Text application open now along with htmltemp.txt window....
<Ghatten> Wallen did you successfully save the file as HTML?
<flamingo> Yes, Wallen: open up Simple Text... Then go to File ... then click on Open file ... find your htmtemp.txt file ... click open
<z-Augustus> will the next lesson be posted on Monday??
<Ghatten> <Wallen> I've already cut & pasted the template into a file I've named htmltemp.txt. Now what?
<JanetBH> Am I being rude by just typing when I have a question?
<Who> JBH...not yet...just be prudent
<dddd> Janet someone will let you know when you can ask your question :)
<Ghatten> Well we are a little "free form" tonight Janet...usually we moderate and only those who are "called on" can talk--kinda like raising your hand in a regular classroom
<JanetBH> How do you get called on?
<flamingo> Actually on a Mac you can just rename the file... Please PC people Pay No Attention to this... Click once on your file name htmtemp.txt to highlight it... then rename it to mypage.html.. And you will have it.... FOR MACS ONLY
<Ghatten> Let's see...Once Wallen is done...
<dddd> by taking the z- off of your name
<Ghatten> We have Kimee and then you...who are officially wanting to ask questions
<z-nipsi> I' still here.  Thanks
<flamingo> LOL... I know but I didn't want to say it... my Mac students like the easy way of doing things... :-)
<Zonie> >> flamingo << I agree with them on that LOL
<JanetBH> Sorry to be so unfamiliar with this...but I'm using my browser and the applet, not IRC.  How can I tell when I'm called on if I have a question?
<z-nipsi> join #webdesign
<JanetBH> Is that IRC?
<Otter> we will ask you   for your question Janet
<Ghatten> yes you are on IRC
<Otter> when it's your   turn
<Ghatten> Kimee do you still have a question for us?
<kimee> yup
<Ghatten> OK go ahead and toss it out
<z-Augustus> you should moderate the channel so the newcomers can get used to the procedure!!
<kimee> I just lost it but here goes  
<Ghatten> We do usually moderate..but there were few questions so we left it open...
<kimee> This is probably advanced as well but on the discussion board there is a form you fill out (I can do) but how does it get onto the webpage almost instantly?
<Ghatten> Ah...the person Lurking behind the title VU_Log is a programmer who has designed a CGI application (program) which takes the text we put in and turns it to a web page on the fly
<Ghatten> It is MUCH more complicated that I can or could explain.. :)
<Ghatten> Anything else.?
<kimee> CGI huh?  My next task :)
<Ghatten> LOL..write me at webdesign@vu.org and I will send you a bunch of  links
<z-penny1t> Ghatten would this be the same principle if a template was created from real-estate agents for houses they have for sale?
<Ghatten> Janet? Your question...
<kimee> That's it for now thanx.
<JanetBH> Can I ask if anyone is interested in my study group idea?
<Ghatten> Not sure penny...such a thing  could be "powered" by the same type of application
<Ghatten> Sure Janet go ahead....
<JanetBH> I want to build a community library - safe links for everyone - parents, seniors, kids, teens, consumers, business etc.
<JanetBH> I also want to provide a tour of the Internet and how to use it, search, read .pdf files
<JanetBH> Is anyone interested?  My e-mail is janeth@ns.net
<Ghatten> That's an ambitious task...:)  You might also want to post a message on the discussion board...
<JanetBH> I did, but there were so many messages, it got instantly put in digest.
<Ghatten> Ah the digest happens weekly (tuesday nights I think)
<Ghatten> Try again
<z-Mailman> interested in what Janet?
<z-kimee> Janet, I am doing an AIDs/family prevention webpage now for the YWCA, I don't have a lot of time but am willing to help you out if you need it.
<Who> the messages are digested once a week...so if you have an open question, restate it
<JanetBH> Thanks, Who.
<Ghatten> I see there seem to be a fair number of folks who still have questions and it is getting close to the end
<z-Augustus> does digest == delete??
<Ghatten> Let's try going down the line and see if we can grab them all quickly
<Ghatten> Digest means it is just no longer on the active board...at the bottom there is a link to all the old digests
<z-Augustus> OK
<Ghatten> It's just that it will not be easily seen/found/responded to by all...
<Ghatten> Guest17830 do you have an HTML question?
<Ghatten> Nan will be after Guest17830....
<z-Augustus> Janet I will send you a link to Ed's link you may get some ideas from it
<JanetBH> Thank you Augustus
<Ghatten> Ya'll are a very polite bunch :)
<Ghatten> Okay we will skip Guest for now and go on to Nan...
<Ghatten> do you have a question for us Nan??
<z-Nan> I think there are 2 Nan's here tonight...I didn't have a question
<Ghatten> OK
<Ghatten> ProfE?
<ProfE> Will office hours be at this time every week?
<Ghatten> A this time we plan to have the office hours at this time every week----but that MAY change so check 
<ProfE> Earlier notice and earlier hours, Please.
<Who> Also, there are often profs or others here to help thru-out the week
<Who> drop on in anytime and see who is here
<Ghatten> Will do on the notice--but the hours are to ATTEMPT to accommodate as many time zones as we can...
<Ghatten> Okay Sharn do you have a question?
<Who> AND...I do believe we will be posting the log or resume of the official office hour chats...and NO this is not a volunteering!
<Ghatten> No, we wont be posting the entire log
<Ghatten> It eats too much space
<Ghatten> We will post "Highlights" cutting out things between the Q & A's
<Who> you mean like my brilliant repartee'?
<Ghatten> Okay moving on down the list...TK do you have a question for us on HTML?
<TK> Is it true browsers can only see font's loaded on the Client computer? if so...If we want to use a non-standard Font, what's the best way to do that? Is saving in Paint Shop as a .jpg a realistic option?
<Ghatten> Yes to the first part
<Ghatten> The only fonts you can see are the ones on your computer
<Ghatten> So if you have "Tipti" and I do not
<Ghatten> I will not see it if you use it on your web page
<Ghatten> And then yes to your second query
<Who> Think first though....images take longer to load and are less friendly on the users side as far as sizing displays....
<Mailman> Ghatten, I have one more question
<Ghatten> Saving the part of the text to a .gif or .jpg is an option
<Who> if you use a font they don't have they DO see a default font
<Ghatten> You can see an example in the lesson
<Who> info is not lost
<TK> thanx
<Ghatten> Did that explain TK?
<Who> If you look at foreign language sites you will see this technique used a lot.
<Ghatten> werus did you have an HTML question?
<werus> I want to learn more HTML skills just because I'm interested in playing around with my own Home Page..... but if I wanted to use these skills to get (or make) a job, what do you think would be the best way to go about that.  In other words, what kind of employment or business opportunities are there in this area?  Just curious.
<TK> yes ..thanx...I've changed the default language to see some text on Foreign sites
<Ghatten> That's a difficult topic to address in this setting at this stage of the game
<Who> TK...it is especially useful for languages that read left to right or top to bottom
<Ghatten> I *KNOW* former students have turned what they learned into a new career in more than one case
<JanetBH> You could build your resume up by designing sites for volunteer organizations
<Ghatten> I think it might a good idea to do a few pages on different topics to show your work to others
<Ghatten> LOL Janet...great idea heheh
<Ghatten> But for details or more in-depth discussion we might hold a special session one weeknight...how does that sound?
<JanetBH> What is LOL?
<werus> Sounds great! 
<flamingo> LOL: Laughing Out Loud
<Ghatten> LOL=Laughing Out Loud
<Who> JBH...LOL is Laughing Out Loud
<Ghatten> :)
<Otter> or little old   ladies!!!!  :)
<Mailman> I can only open my HTML file with Netscape using a right click then click open
<Who> brb Be right back
<dddd> ROFL
<kimee> that sounds great!!
<Who> IMB I'm back
<Ghatten> FunFan You are next for a question?
<Sharn> The ss sounds O.K. to me too.
<funfan> Ghatten, got any good links for animation with sound.
<Who> ROFL Rolling on the floor laughing
<Ghatten> You are looking for combining Animation with sound? Sounds like it might be handled by a Shockwave ap
<Ghatten> or a Java Applet...
<Ghatten> Funfan?
<Ghatten> Hey...not leaving just yet...
<Zonie> <funfan> Ghatten, got any good links for animation with sound.
<Ghatten> Still got a few ??
<Ghatten> Right --got that Zonie and I answered looking for specifics..hehe
<funfan> yes, combined. Is there anyway you can let more people see/hear it without using Java.  not every one support Java applets.
<Ghatten> Yes and not everyone would be able to see Shockwave either...
<Ghatten> But those are the two main ways to "Combine" the two
<Ghatten> Animated gifs could be placed on a page with a sound file on the same page but it would probably not be in sync
<Ghatten> and also you could use a "movie" format of some sort
<funfan> humm.  Will rethink about it . Movie ? 
<Ghatten> Sorry I can't give any better suggestions there 
<Ghatten> Quicktime maybe?
<Otter> Not everyone can   view a "movie" either   -- so be careful what   audience you are targeting
<Ghatten> Kimee you are next....
<Otter> kimee -- do you   have a question?
<kimee> You mentioned about fonts & only being able t view the fonts that you had on your computer but...
<kimee> what if you uploaded the font to your ISP.  That way it would be there, would that work??
<Who> kimee..i believe it is designed into HTML 4 to be able to push fonts...
<Ghatten> Well they would still not have it on the computer there
<Zonie> embedded fonts isn't it Who ???
<Who> si
<kimee> Huh, I thought that it would read it right from the ISP
<Ghatten> Some times people give links to where the preferred font in the document so the viewers could get it...but then that makes the viewer work
<Ghatten> And then....
<Zonie> been looking at that, may touch it someday : )
<Ghatten> There are the new things coming up that Zonie and Who are talking about...but for now they really don't apply well
<kimee> For instance like graphics, you don't have the graphics on the computer but you still see them??
<Ghatten> It's because fonts are read out of a certain location on the computer
<Ghatten> The .gifs and .jpgs are read through the browser* kimee frowns
<kimee> Thanx
<Ghatten> S'okay
<Ghatten> someday we will all be able to see the nice fonts
<Otter> it is best to use the common   fonts to be safe! 
<oz1> So how do we know what fonts to use?
<Ghatten> as Who and Zonie indicated HTML 4 and beyond are trying to make this easier
<Ghatten> I will include a list of the common fonts in lesson 2 for ya'll!
<Ghatten> Mac and PC
<Ghatten> :)
<Zonie> MS has a free font embedder if any one is interested
<oz1> Thanks Ghatten
<Zonie> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/web/embedding/weft/
<Ghatten> Okay any last minute questions before we roll outta here for the evening?>?
<spacemom> me
<spacemom> spacemom is silly
<Ghatten> Okay spacemom
<spacemom> it was to silly
<Who> yes?
<Ghatten> LOL
<Ghatten> Nothing can be too silly
<Who> Please ask space case
<Zonie> only dumb question is the one you don't ask 
<spacemom> thanks but who answered it for me I
<spacemom> I was forgetting to put in a/ in a code* Ghatten declares that the Office is   closed....and thanks everyone for coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<Zonie> I have question, what is Office Hours schedule
<Ghatten> 7-8:30 PST Saturdays
<Zonie> only one ? : )
<Ghatten> So far yes..but will try to schedule others if there is a big need
<Ghatten> keep track of the heavy traffic nights and times Z &B
<Zonie> : |
<Blossom^> OK Ghatten
<Ghatten> Thanks!
<TK> Zonie..Do you know if the Microsoft Weft Tool will also work in Netscape? Opening paragraph says '...Need Internet explorer v 4.0 or later'
<Zonie> >> TK << you got me there make one and see :)
<Ghatten> That is a IE thinkie
<Ghatten> thingie
<Zonie> NS and IE CSS are different I know that : (
<TK> another Bill Gates conspiracy...
<Zonie> don't know for sure which is W3C compliant, but I think I read it was IE
<Zonie> and NS is going there own way, still think they got a monopoly I guess : )
<Ghatten> night*** Ghatten (webdesign@ACCS-AS53-DP02.nwrk.grid.net) has left #webdesign
Session Close: Sat Jan 17 20:53:25 1998