Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 12 Produced: Mon Nov 11 6:19:16 1996 From: rabbi_gabbai@prodigy.com (Jeff Fischer) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 07:14:28, -0500 Subject: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur I heard this topic being discussed in our shul Yom Kippur night and I wanted to get other people's answers. On Motza'ay Yom Kippur, we say the regular weekday Shemoneh Esray with Ata Chonantanu. How come we say the b'racha of Selach Lanu if we just finished an entire day of selicha ulchapparah and fasting? Why not skip it? Jeff Fischer - Gabbai of Young Israel of Passaic ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 13 Produced: Mon Nov 11 22:36:13 1996 From: Danny Schoemann Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:56:54 +0200 Subject: Re: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur In mail-jewish Vol. 25 #12 Digest On 11 Nov 96 at 6:20, Jeff Fischer wrote: > On Motza'ay Yom Kippur, we say the regular weekday Shemoneh Esray with > Ata Chonantanu. How come we say the b'racha of Selach Lanu if we just > finished an entire day of selicha ulchapparah and fasting? Why not > skip it? 1) We daven in the plural - it's not the royal we - it's because we daven for everybody, even the mis-guided souls who didn't spend Yom Kippur in shul, and other people who may "already" have sinned. 2) If you said every name of HaShem up until then (there are over 40 of them) with appropriate concentration then maybe you could skip it. :-) But then you wouldn't want to. Hope this helps. Danny Schoemann Setup Software Engineer, Accent Software International, Ltd. 28 Pierre Koenig St., POB 53063, Jerusalem 91530 Israel Tel +972-2-793-723 Ext 273 - Fax +972-2-793-731 DannyS@accentsoft.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 13 Produced: Mon Nov 11 22:36:13 1996 From: Benjamin Waxman Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:13:20 +0200 Subject: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur I heard a wonderful story from Rabbi Shlomo Riskin which partially answers your question. After Rabbi Riskin made aliya, he had to go back to New York for the High Holidays. It was not a good trip, as he had wanted to be in Efrat for the chaggim. So, finally Yom Kippur was about to end, the congregation had just davened nie'llah, and its time to daven Maariv. Rabbi Riskin then got up and said to the congregation: "All of my life I never understood why, immediately after Yom Kippur, we say 'Vehoo rachum vemekapair avon' (He is merciful and forgives sin...)'. What sins have we done? We just finished Nie'llah two minutes ago. What did anyone do in the last two minutes? But now I understand. You all just said 'Next year in Jerusalem' and you know perfectly well that you have no intention what so ever of moving there". Ben Waxman, Technical Writer BenjaminW@livelink.com, www.livelink.com Tel. +972-2-6528274, Fax. +972-2-6528356 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 13 Produced: Mon Nov 11 22:36:13 1996 From: Freda B Birnbaum Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:26:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur I don't know the serious answer to this question, but a young rabbi of my acquaintance once told his congregation that the reason was -- between the shofar blowing and the beginning of maariv, at least one person must have said, "Thank God it's over!" Freda Birnbaum fbb6@columbia.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 13 Produced: Mon Nov 11 22:36:13 1996 From: Akiva Miller Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:42:57 -0500 Subject: Re: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur The common answer to this is that the few minutes between the end of Yom Kippur and reaching that bracha have an unfortunately high potential for sinning, such as mumbling the words, not concentrating on them, conversation during the service, davening despite a need to go to the bathroom, and on, and on. And so we do have ample need for this bracha. But in addition, it is very interesting to note that there is an identical corresponding question on the flip side of that very coin: Namely, at Mincha on Erev Rosh Hashana, we ask G-d, "barech alenu es hashana hazos -- bless this year for us". And it means the current year, not the coming year. So with only a few minutes left, why do we bother asking for this blessing? The answer to both questions is the same: Every moment of every day contains an enormous potential for both good and bad. Let us all be very careful to minimize the sins we do in any given minute, and at the same time maximize the blessings which we can bring to the world. Akiva Miller ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 13 Produced: Mon Nov 11 22:36:13 1996 From: Andy Goldfinger Date: 11 Nov 1996 13:04:51 -0500 Subject: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur The following was said by R. Benyamin Cohen (ZTz"L) in the name of R. Bavad (ZTz"l) of Sunderland, England: We are only really responsible for aveiras (sins) over which we have control. Now, in principle, we all have absolute free will, but in fact our behaviors are strongly determined by habits and psychological forces. Thus, a given person may be able to choose whether or not she eats chazer (pork) in a non-kosher restaurant, but to give up eating in non-kosher restaurants entirely may be beyond the psychological capabilites of this person at this time. The process of tshuvah (correction of one's actions) that occurs before and during yom kippur results in an improvement of the personality. On Yom Kippur, we doven (pray) for forgiveness for all aveiras (sins), but in fact we are forgiven only for those for which we are liable -- those that lie within our range of free will (which only G-d knows). At the end of Yom Kippur, we have moved our level of free will to a higher range, and we now become liable for aveiras that we previously were not. Therefore, we begin the year by asking for forgiveness for these, and tshuvah for them becomes the task of the new year. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 13 Produced: Mon Nov 11 22:36:13 1996 From: ar943@lafn.org (Richard Flom) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 11:25:57 -0800 Subject: Re: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur I have heard two somewhat related explanations. Our teacher, Rabbi Daniel Gordis, told us just before yontiff that the reason is that, at the very conclusion of the Yom Kippur service, we may have committed an aveirah. We say "l'shanah haba'a b'yerushalayim", and if we say that knowing that we have no intention of making aliyah, or even of visiting Yerushalayim, we have made a false statement. Thus, we recite Selach Lanu on Motza'ei Yom Kippur. For this reason, he continued, many people immediately perform the mitzvah of commencing construction of the sukkah, as a sort of compensation, as well as out of the normal desire to rush to perform a mitzvah. The second explanation I have heard, and I do not recall the source, is to teach us humility, lest we think that we have made perfect atonement. The difficulty with this explanation, of course, is, then what is the point of observing Yom Kippur, if we immediately learn that we have failed. The answer, I believe, is that we recite Selach Lanu in the plural, just as we recite all of the confessionals on Yom Kippur itself. Even if I as an individual have not committed any particular sin, I nevertheless recite the group confessional because some Jew, somewhere, has committed such an act. Rosh Chodesh Kislev Tov! Richard A. Flom University of Judaism - Ziegler School of Rabbinic Studies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 13 Produced: Mon Nov 11 22:36:13 1996 From: Larry Rosler Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 13:20:54 PST Subject: Re: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur I have been told this reason: The way Ma'ariv is davened in most congregations after the shofar is blown (with the congregation streaming for the exits) is an aveirah in itself! :-) Larry Rosler lr@hpl.hp.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 13 Produced: Mon Nov 11 22:36:13 1996 From: Sheldon Meth Date: 11 Nov 1996 16:22:54 -0400 Subject: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur In v25 n12, Jeff Fischer asks why we say Selach Lanu at Ma'ariv on Motza'ay Yom Kippur, after finishing a day of selichah u'kapparaha. I heard two reasons: 1. Our haughtiness in thinking that because we think we have finished a fullfilling day of selichah u'kapparah, "es kumt unz" [we deserve it] to deleting Selach Lanu Avinu, is a sin for which we require selicha. 2. After purifying ourselves with a night and day of fasting and prayer, we come to the climax of Ne'ilah. In the afterglow of that, having shed all the kelipos [shells], we come to the crystal clear realization of the enourmity of our sins before Hakadosh Baruch Hu. That new insight and clarity, requires us to ask for selicha at an even deeper level. Of course, there is also the straightforward reason: "We do not alter the coin which the Chachamim have minted." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 16 Produced: Wed Nov 13 1:26:33 1996 From: susanh@cc.bellcore.com (Susan Hornstein) Date: 12 Nov 1996 10:09 EST Subject: re: Ma'ariv on Motzaei Yom Kippur It always amazes me that, by the time we get to the S'lach Lanu b'racha on Motzaei Yom Kippur, I always have something new to think about doing teshuva for -- usually that, once again, I have rushed through davening without proper kavana... Susan Hornstein ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 16 Produced: Wed Nov 13 1:26:33 1996 From: Aryeh Frimer Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:19:24 +0200 (WET) Subject: Re: Selach Lanu on Motzaei Yom Kippur The reason we say selach lanu on Motzaei Yom Kippur is because that is the standard form of the Shmoneh esreh that Chazal ordained to cover all situations - even for a Tzaddik Gamur (a completely righteous individual). In addition, We pray not for ourselves alone but for all klal Yisrael. The humorous answer given to this question is that we ask forgiveness for the speed and lack of Kavanah of our Motzaei Yom Kippur Davening! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 16 Produced: Wed Nov 13 1:26:33 1996 From: Klugerman@aol.com (Tszvi Klugerman) Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:57:07 -0500 Subject: Re: Shemona Esrey on Motza'ei Yom Kippur In vol 25 Jeff Fischer asked why we say the bracha for Selicha on Motza'ei Yom Kippur? I only heard one humorous answer which went along the lines, that by the time we get to Neilah, our physical bodies are overiding our spiritual assumption of angelic status, and we tend to rush through Neilah to make it on time. It is because of the rushing through of Neilah, that we have to say Selach Lanu. Actually, I believe that I once saw the opinion that it was because of Lo Plug, that since motza'ei Yom Kippur is by all means a regular day, we sholdn't confuse people who would be davening by heart since many Mahzorim do not contain the maariv for the weekday, and shouldn't differentiate between standard days which in and of themselves have no distinction. Tszvi Klugerman ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 16 Produced: Wed Nov 13 1:26:33 1996 From: Art Werschulz Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 09:10:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur Hi. I came across a story (perhaps recounted in Agnon's "Days of Awe") that explains why we say "selach lanu" in the Motzaei Yom Kippur shemoneh esrei. The king was once making his rounds in the countryside, and a peasant insulted him. The royal guard wanted to make quick work of said peasant, but the king said to leave him alone, since the peasant didn't really know what he was doing. The king brought the peasant to the capital city, and had him educated, teaching him about who the king was and why he should be shown respect and honor. The next time the king made his countryside visit, the peasant (who now understood who the king was) fell to his knees and asked forgiveness for his earlier action. Draw your own parallel. A more cynical explanation (sorry, don't know the source): Everybody's davvening in a major hurry, so they can go home and break their fasts. Hence we're asking mechila for the lack of quality in the very first davvening after YK ends, which (as a result of the greater sensitivity we should have achieved during YK) should really be a truly inspired davvening! Chodesh tov. Art Werschulz (8-{)} "Metaphors be with you." -- bumper sticker Internet: agw@cs.columbia.eduWWW ATTnet: Columbia U. (212) 939-7061, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 16 Produced: Wed Nov 13 1:26:33 1996 From: rhendel@mcs.drexel.edu (Russell Hendel) Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 20:19:50 -0500 Subject: Shemoneh Esray on Motza'ay Yom Kippur I would just like to add a "lamdasheh (analytical)" answer to why we pray for fogiveness in the Maariv after Yom Kippur if we have already been forgiven on Yom Kippur itself. There seems to have been a flurry of discussions on this in Vol 25, #10-#15. Well, Chapter 1 of Rambam's Prayer gives TWO reasons or sources for the Shmoneh Esray A SUMMARY of basic needs that people have to pray for A CORRESPONDENCE to the sacrifices. Before proceeding let me just mention a beautiful essay by Rabbi Hirsch (reprinted in Vol 3 of Rabbi Hirsch's collected writings) in which Rabbi Hirsch shows that EACH PART of the daily sacrifice corresponds to EACH BLESSING in the Shmoneh Esray (e.g. the first part of the animal brought up to the altar was the HEAD, and the first blessing in the Shmoneh Esray is the prayer for UNDERSTANDING (an obvious correspondence)). We now have an easy answer to the "why we say Shmoneh Esray after Yom Kippur" If we use the "SUMMARY of basic needs" reasons for Shmoneh Esray then we do NOT have to say FORGIVENESS since we don't need it at that time. But if we use the "CORRESPONDENCE to sacrifices" approach for Shmoneh Esray then we DO have to say FORGIVENESS since the WHOLE animal was offered and the organ corresponding to forgiveness was also offered. I thought this little lamdasheh approach would complement nicely some of the other answers to this perplexing problem. Russell Jay Hendel, Ph.d, ASA, rhendel @ mcs drexel edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 19 Produced: Mon Nov 18 0:40:20 1996 From: Ken Miller Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:46:39 -0500 Subject: Maariv after Yom Kippur Regarding the recent discussion why we ask for forgiveness a scant few seconds after Yom Kippur has concluded: My wife suggests a very clear and simple answer to this problem: It is said that "the Season of our Repentance" (new phrase! how do y'all like it?) ends not at Neilah, but rather on or about Shmini Atzeres. We see this in many examples, such as for someone who was unable to do Tashlich or Kapparos prior to Yom Kippur, and can do it then. So although the *intensity* of our repentance will drop off after Neilah, there is no reason why it should stop *entirely*, and so in fact it does continue into Maariv. My only problem with this idea is that I have seen in several places (yeah, but can I find them? nooo...) that on Yom Kippur one should NOT repent for the sins of a prior year because it demonstrates a lack of faith in Yom Kippur's power of atonement. If that is so, then what is the status of the period between Yom Kippur and Shmini Atzeres? Can we do Tashlich or not? (Note: When I write about the Season of Repentance ending at a certain time, I hope no one responds by pointing out that repentance is a good idea at all times. What we are talking about is not repentance in general, but specifically repentance for sins done last year.) Akiva (and Ilene!) Miller ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 25 Produced: Tue Nov 26 22:49:02 1996 From: Carl Sherer Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:55:00 +0000 Subject: Confessing Past Sins (was Maariv After Yom Kippur) Ken Miller writes: > My only problem with this idea is that I have seen in several places > (yeah, but can I find them? nooo...) that on Yom Kippur one should NOT > repent for the sins of a prior year because it demonstrates a lack of > faith in Yom Kippur's power of atonement. If that is so, then what is > the status of the period between Yom Kippur and Shmini Atzeres? Can we > do Tashlich or not? I think that the Rambam, at least, would disagree with that statement. The Rambam in Hil. Tshuva 2:8 explicitly states that one should confess on Yom Kippur sins that he has already confessed on previous Yom Kippurs. Moreover, the Rambam in Hil. Tshuva 1:4 lists categories of sins for which Yom Kippur does *not* atone; only R"L suffering or death may atone for them. Thus if Chazal tell us that the final gzar din (decree) is not sealed until Hoshana Rabba, I don't think there is any problem with continuing to do tshuva and pray for forgiveness until then. But so far I have not been able to find any sources for saying Tashlich after Yom Kippur - my guess is that they do exist, but that my sforim library is not complete enough to have them. -- Carl Sherer Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son, Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel. Thank you very much. Carl and Adina Sherer sherer@actcom.co.il ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 51 Produced: Tue Dec 24 16:17:15 1996 From: mopo@netvision.net.il (Moshe Poupko) Date: Sun, 17 Nov 96 08:18:39 PST Subject: Ma'ariv on Motzai Yom Kippur [I have a number of responses still on this topic. A few add an interesting insight or twist, so I'll pass them along. I will not send any more that have us saying Selach lanu for having complained about the Chazan, Rabbi's speech etc. Mod.] On the night of Yom Kippur we arrive in shul quite full from our pre-fast meal. We are comfortable and have a sense of physical well being. Yet when we come to Kriat S'hma we say the verse "Baruch shem kavod......." aloud because we are like angels! After a full day of fasting and praying, crying and bowing,abstaining from all physical pleasures, wearing white and standing, if not the entire day then certainly long stretches of time, we have finished Ne'ela and cried out "Hashem Hu HaElokim" 7 times we have reached great spiritual heights. So why do we say "Selach Lanu" in Maariv. Because it's not where you come from that's important but where you are going. Shalom, Moshe Poupko ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mail.Jewish Mailing List Volume 25 Number 51 Produced: Tue Dec 24 16:17:15 1996 From: David Oratz Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 19:32:52 +0200 Subject: Slach Lanu Motzaei Yom Kippur >From: rabbi_gabbai@prodigy.com (Jeff Fischer) >On Motza'ay Yom Kippur, we say the regular weekday Shemoneh Esray with >Ata Chonantanu. How come we say the b'racha of Selach Lanu if we just >finished an entire day of selicha ulchapparah and fasting? Why not >skip it?" I Once heard from "the Magid", Rav Sholom Shvadron Shlitah, a similar question: Why do we say "Boruch shem kvod Malchuso..." out loud as if we were Malochim for Maariv of Yom Kippur "Ven de Gefilte fish shvimt noch in boich" [When the Gefilte fish is still swimming in the stomach. - Mod.] whereas Motzoei Yom Kippur, after fasting like Malochim an entire day, we do not? His answer was that with the mindset of entering Yom Kippur one could immediately attain the level of the malochim,whereas the mindset of leaving Yom Kippur was inconsistent with being a maloch. This may not be a fully satisfactory answer for slach lanu. An answer for slach lanu itself is given by the commentary to the beginning of Maariv for Motzoei Yom kippur in the ArtScroll Machzor in the name of Rav Yotzchok of Vorki. Some of the subsequent answers touched on similar themes from more modern sources. I believe that the classical source for the answer is from the Chovos Halvovos in Shaar Avodat Elokim chapter three, where he explains while the truly pious used to do fresh tshuvah each and every day. Dovid Oratz ----------------------------------------------------------------------