Interview: Emmanuel Steward!

        August 26, 2002

          By Mike Houser

The Fran Jones Under-19 National Championship came to Reno, Nevada, Sept. 13-17. It was a great enough time to watch and meet the future of boxing, but when word filtered in that legendary Hall of Fame trainer and manager Emanuel Steward would be attending and available for an interview, things got all the brighter. Having grown up on boxing in the '70s and '80s, it was impossible not to come to admire the man that seemingly had a monopoly on all the great talent in boxing. When you heard the word "Kronk," you though of Emanuel Steward and his stable of boxers: Thomas Hearns, Milt McCrory, Jimmy Paul, and many, many others. He was a fixture at all the big fights, and over the years trained 29 world champions. In 1996, he was inducted into the International Boxing Hall of Fame, and in 2001, he was welcomed into the World boxing Hall of Fame as both a trainer and a manager.

Having grown used to seeing him in the corner of heavyweight champ Lennox Lewis, and enjoying his intelligent, insightful commentary alongside Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant on HBO Boxing, it figured to be an interview that would revolve around the professional boxing game. It was also a given that every writer and boxing fan within eye and earshot would want to spend some time with perhaps the successor to the late Eddie Futch as the greatest living trainer.

After a late arrival, Steward kept his eye on the young boxers in the tournament before heading over to the University of Nevada Boxing Gym, where I was promised an interview with him. Dressed in gray slacks and a black sports shirt, the smiling, soft-spoken and articulate Steward sat down and generously gave over an hour of his time for the following interview.

After the second question, it became very apparent that there was a lot more to Steward than the Kronk, HBO, Lennox Lewis and professional boxing. His passion for amateur boxing was unbridled, so it only became fitting that the interview was taking place in a gym full of amateur boxers, amid the sounds of jump ropes slapping the floor and the pounding of gloves on heavy bags and the mitts, rather than at the Eldorado Hotel-Casino, the site of the tournament.

Steward talked at length on many topics: amateur boxing, the state of professional boxing, his past world champions and his latest word on the future of Lennox Lewis as well as his prediction and analysis of the upcoming Oscar De La Hoya-Fernando Vargas fight.

Here now is an interview with the man who more than lived up to his billing as perhaps "the classiest man in boxing."

Emanuel, you look great. How do you keep yourself in shape?
Well, I work out. I've always been a more physical-type trainer. Where years ago you'd see a lot of the guys stand on the ropes and give the guys water, I've always been one that, you know, worked the pads, move around, a lot of times go running with my fighter. I like to stay in pretty good shape myself.

Tell us about your involvement with amateur boxers.
That's what people don't realize: Outside of one or two of my big professionals, all of my time, other than that, is with amateur boxers. Cortez Bey is up there. I've got Andre and Anthony Dirrell. But the bulk of my real strength is that they're 16, and so they won't get to (the Under-19 National Championships) until next year.

Where are you based out of now?
I live in Detroit. But what has happened with this new position is I'm trying to spend time watching all of the kids all over the country. What my main goal is-what you may or may not know is that we (the United States) is tied for 10th place in the world. So, based on that, we're trying to move to a better level. It's a major job to do in 24 months, but I don't think is impossible.

One of the things is, in recent years, our kids have not been punching effectively enough. We see them fighting a lot like they do in the 1970s: just shoeshining and trying to get points. So the rest of the world and amateur boxing realized they couldn't compete with our kids. Our kids were much faster and much more technically sound�much sharper. So they got together and changed the rules. And now we have to go back to the international (scoring) system, which favors older, physical fighters-just the opposite of what our kids are. So, as a result, we have not won a major championship or gold medal since '92.

So, are you going to be one of the United States boxing team's coaches for the 2004 Olympics?
Yeah, I'll be one of the coaching staff. There are two things we've got to do: 1) We've got to get our kids punching more-keep their boxing techniques, but have a little bit more commitment when the punches land so they score. 2) The next thing is to see that these kids have more international boxing matches. They're not getting enough international experience. Oftentimes, when they go to these international fights, they'd be fighting for the first time in their lives in the Olympics, so they've never even fought internationally. So they get nervous. They aren't used to seeing all these guys from other countries and foreign languages. Mentally, they have to get comfortable.

I remember in '83, I was coaching six of the guys who were gold medal winners. I know as a coach I was going all over the world with them. I had Mark Breland, Tyrell Biggs, Pernell Whitaker, Jerry Page, Frank Tate and Steve McCrory. I was just talking with (University of Nevada boxing coach) Mike Martino, and we were saying how during the '83 World Championships I had Stevie McCrory, Frank Tate and all my amateurs fighting one night, and the next night I had Milt McCrory fight for the professional world championship all right here in Reno.

I was here for that.
I had real close tie with amateur boxing. In '78, the first time I won an international event, I went to Belgrade, Yugoslavia as a coach, where I was USA-A.A.U. as it was called then-Coach of the Year. It was 1977, so as a result they sent me to Belgrade, Yugoslavia as a coach. And I was just so amazed about everything. They had a whole international system for the kilograms, had to adjust to that, and I know myself that I became more effective in following trips because I felt more comfortable. I got to know the officials, I got to understand at the weigh-ins, you had to adjust to different brands of gloves, we had to wrap hands differently, all of that. So that's the same thing we have to do with the amateur boxers.

So by the time '83 and '84 came around, I had been on so many trips, I was very comfortable. And then the fighters I had-Pernell and all of them-did extremely well. And then, as a result, I had three professional world champions at the same time in addition to most of the kids. So this is not much compared to what I had then. I had Milton McCrory, who fought Colin Jones to a draw here in Reno, then finally beat him in Las Vegas.. I had Tony Tucker and Tommy Hearns. I think I also had Mike McCallum.

Were you a coach on the '84 Olympic team?
No, I had so had so many professional champions that even though in '83 I was doing most of the coaching and going on all the trips, by the time the Olympic Box-Offs came, at the championships fights, at the Finals' Trials, I worked eight corners out of 11 fights.. That's how strong I was. I had Michael Nunn, who lost to Virgil Hill at 165. Ricky Womack, at the time, lost to Evander after they had some wars. And I had couple of other kids that lost. But anyway, I was very, very busy.

Then after that, they sent them off for six weeks to go to the training camp down in Texas. That's when I knew I had too many professional champions, I had to go to them. But it worked out OK in training because I had the amateurs and the pros all training together. Mark Breland and Mike McCallum and Tommy Hearns and Frank Tate, all of them, boxing together. I had Tyrell Biggs boxing with Tony Tucker every day and all of that. That's how it worked. So I didn't have to go to summer training sessions. I trained all of them. Sometimes we trained in Detroit. Sometimes we trained in Colorado Springs, the whole team.

How many world champions have you trained?
29.

And how old are you now?
58. I started when I was 7 and started fighting when I was 8, so I have 50 years in boxing.

Okay. Let me run this by you. Tell me the story about a 118-pound kid who won the National Golden Gloves in 1963.
Nothing in my life has ever happened to exceed that moment. The Tyson and Lennox Lewis fight, and Tommy Hearns and Pipino Cuevas fight and Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard and all of them. That was the greatest moment and thrill in my life.

Where did it happen?
In Chicago, Illinois. I was with (University of Nevada boxing coach) Greg Rice, here, who was one of the guys who saw me win my first championship when I was in Detroit when I was about 15. We were just remembering that and that was in about '59.

Did you ever go pro?
No. Because I couldn't get a manager I could trust. As a result, I was really disappointed, because I had been boxing since I was 7 or 8, and here I was, 19 years old and the national champ, and I had nowhere else to go. I just ended up and got married and started working at Detroit Edison (power company) as a lineman, and in the evening I'd go back to the gym and train the kids for a hobby. And this is where we are now.

What year did you begin training boxers?
I actually started training fighters in'61 while I was still boxing.

What made you want to train fighters?
I didn't intend to be a trainer or a manager. When I was training in the gym in '61, I carried a little boy, and next thing I was dating the girl who ended up becoming my wife, so I carried her little brother, and then a couple of other little kids. I was training them, then they all won championships. I had brother who came to live with me and said he wanted to box, so I had to start back to training him because he was my own brother, and I haven't stopped since then, even though I've had a lot of other businesses I've worked in. The only thing I ever looked for is that one day somebody would win a gold medal in the Olympics. That's all I wanted. I've had six.

So now it's on to 2004?
Yeah. We're pretty low down on the list, but I think we've got a lot of talent here in this country. We've got this beautiful, vast country to draw from. We've got the best kids in the world. We've got the best from Des Moines, Iowa. You've got them from Montana, from New York to Mississippi, to Pensacola, Florida�Texas, everywhere. We have all these great resources and the main thing is we just got to have these kids busy with international matches, and just add a little more punching power and boxing techniques.

The champions from this tournament (Fran Jones Under-19 national Championship) are going to Colorado Springs for two weeks prior to going to Cuba (for the Under-19 World Championships). Then we've got a team that's going against Ireland. Then we've got the United States versus Puerto Rico. I just left trying to get finances for that, and it should be in New York City, possibly on USA (Network). So we're going to start having these kids touring to get ready, trying to get familiar with the amateur international rules, fighting foreign countries, and even in the J.O.'s (Junior Olympics), in addition to winning the National Junior Olympic Championships in their own country, we have allotted certain kids to fight International Junior Olympic Championships. They were fighting against kids from Puerto Rico, from London...so the kids are getting at 14 or 15, they're all getting used to international fighting now. And it's going to be like this all the way until 2004. So with this experience, and with a lot of our kids having over 100 fights, we're going to go in there with a strong team.

Sounds like a great plan. Going back to the pros, who was your first professional world champion?
That would be Hilmer Kenty (WBA Lightweight champion, 1980).

You've had a lot of champions. Which one of them sticks out as the best?
My favorite. Tommy Hearns.

Let me ask you this. Another legendary trainer-Eddie Futch-said the greatest fighter he ever saw was Charley Burley. I ask you the same question now.
I was told by everyone in boxing who saw him-I didn't see him-but it had to be true. It was phenomenal what they told me this man did. Charley Burley. Give me a list of all-time great champions, the greatest pound-for-pound fighters ever, and he never even fought for a title, and I never even saw him. But everybody ain't wrong-pardon the bad English.

Is Lennox Lewis done basking in his glory? Has he thought about making a move now?
I don't know. Lennox and I will be meeting in about 10 days. Whatever decision he makes, I'm going to be supportive of him. I'm very, very happy. He did everything that could be asked of him. He's going to be 37 in September, he's been boxing since he was 12, and he was the World Junior champion. He fought in two Olympics, he was a gold medal winner, three-time heavyweight champion of the world, he's fought and beat all of the real credible fighters of his era. Riddick Bowe didn't fight him because he got knocked out by Lennox (in the 1988 Olympics). Based on all of that, there's nothing left for him to accomplish. Unless he just wants to fight for the love of it. And he's made money and he's handled his money. And he told me, "Emanuel, I really kind of want to settle down now and get married and have a family." It's weighed on him. He never wanted to box and try to be married, he just tries to do things very professional and keep everything compartmentalized. That's they way he is in camp. He is a champion. I think he seriously is thinking about getting married. He may fight and he may not.

So without saying so, what I'm hearing is it is possible that he is going to retire.
It's possible.

Okay. We've got Wladimir Klitschko, Evander Holyfield, Chris Byrd, John Ruiz and Jameel McCline out there. Who do you see emerging on top of the pile if Lewis retires?
From what I saw in his last fight, and even though he still hasn't fought a stiff fight, I think it's Klitschko.. But I would still like to see him in a fight where he has to show a little grit. Beating Ray Mercer who was 41 and hadn't had a significant fight, that's not telling me much.

The jury is still out then?
Yes, but his technique and everything, I'm very impressed. He's fundamentally very sound.
If Lennox carries on, isn't it true that he has a mandatory with Tyson after one more fight?
He has a situation where he has a mandatory with Chris Byrd, and he has a contractual deal which is drawn up between him and Tyson, where they will have a rematch after they've both had separate matches. But what I've been reading from Showtime's own boss, Jay Larkin, he doesn't see how it could be marketable. Unless Mike does something major and that's credible in a fight in between. Because it would be difficult in putting this rematch on when the first fight wasn't a match.

What is good about Lennox when he's in training, and what, if anything, is difficult?
Lennox is extremely easy to train. He has a tremendous work ethic once he goes to camp. He's very intelligent and very fast. The only difficult thing I have with Lennox is overtraining. We have problems controlling that. He's a pleasure to work with, and you don't have to spend any extra effort at all, you don't have to spend a lot of time talking to him. He's very, very controlled and disciplined. The only problem we have is by the second week or third week in camp, he's ready to fight.. And we have about 12 weeks and we have a rough time trying to take off a day, because he wants to train. I guess that's that thoroughbred in him. That's the only problem we have with him in camp.

Is it true that you have Lucia Rijker now?
Yep.

Is it also true that you've said," No Hollywood. Just concentrate on Christy Martin"?
Well, that's what we're doing right now. We're in the process of negotiating, of completing a deal of taking on Christy Martin. And that's the only fight that has any significance to her, because other than that, it's going to be like Lennox was with Rahman the first fight: They're not going to be motivated. Christy and Lucia are two tremendous fighters. I don't care if they were guys. Christy Martin can fight. She comes to fight. After her last fight on Lewis-Rahman II, the first person to congratulate her was Lucia. She said that during that year that Lucia took off due to managerial problems, Christy has improved a lot.

So there probably won't be any more of those dust-ups between them in the gym anymore, huh?
I hope not. Christy and Lucia are really headstrong women, too. Lucia talks real proper and fights pretty, but she's really a tough girl, too. You look at her background, she's into kickboxing and never lost to a girl in 25 fights, she's a five-time champion, traveled all over the world. Before that she was a fencing champion when she was a little girl in Holland, and when she was 6 or 7 years old, she was into judo. She's been the most, I'd say, famous and successful, one-on-one contact female in the history of the world. When I went back to Holland with her and started to read up on her, I just couldn't believe how much they idolized her.

She and I are putting together a physical fitness video now, and she's ready to start training for Christy. They are the two great women in boxing.. They aren't going on their daddies' names. Lucia said she's 34 now, and that she's been into judo and wrestling and kickboxing and boxing since she was 6 years old-that's 28 years into something like that, and she wants to finish it off with one big fight. Then regardless of who wins, she and Christy can walk away into the sunset, so to say. She deserves that, and I think Christy deserves that too.

Here's a two-part question: You've trained Oscar De La Hoya. Why will he win against Fernando Vargas? And if he doesn't win, what will it take for Vargas to beat him?
My answer is that I see the fight as an almost dead-even fight. Nobody else sees it that way. Everyone else sees it as Oscar winning easily, because Oscar is superior in terms of his skills, exxperience, and probably hand speed. And naturally makes super fights. But the one thing that can neutralize this-and I've learned this in boxing-this is a fight that Fernando Vargas' whole life and world is based on. When a man gets that one fight, the rest of his whole life means nothing. I know that he's totally focused, and he's much like Evander Holyfield was when he fought Mike Tyson. When they made that fight, I told Don King he made a bad move. He said we probably couldn't even get him past the physical because of his heart business, and I said I don't care what, because when I trained Evander for the second Riddick Bowe fight, that's what, most of the time, we talked about. He was so hurt that Mike was in prison at the time. He was obsessed with beating Mike Tyson.

This fight, I think Fernando is going to go to another level. And Fernano-we were at a restaurant in Big Bear and Fernando was training in my Kronk Gym in Big Bear. And we had a little celebration party because he was getting ready to fight Raul Marquez. He had his family there, and we were all having a good time but walks in the door but Oscar. Man, I've never seen-he was foaming at the mouth, animal faces, screaming and hollering, it took his mother and all of us to hold him-by his legs, his pants, he was on top of the table trying to climb at him. I went over and talked to Oscar for a few moments and got him out of there. Fernando totally went berserk. When you see somebody like that, it can hurt them sometimes and
it can help them. But I think Fernando, after being so emotional and headstrong with Trinidad, is going to fight a good, solid technical bout. And even though I think Oscar has the more superior tools, Oscar is going to have to be very focused for this fight.

The biggest thing Oscar has going against him is that if Vargas controls (himself), it will work for him. I don't know that if Oscar has that real intensity. And if he doesn't have it, I can still respect it. This man has been boxing since he was 5. He's done everything and had so much, so his biggest struggle is going to be inside of himself. I think that Mayweather is good for him, that it keeps his focus, and Mayweather's a boxing nut, so to say, and the intensity that he brings to the table I think is going to help Oscar maintain and revitalize that fire, his desire for boxing.

So we have a look at both sides, but do you have an absolute prediction?
No, I can't. I see it as a toss-up. Oscar is superior in skills and technique and speed, but the one thing that can equalize all that is--Fernando is still a good fighter-but that burning desire to win this fight if he never does nothing else, neutralizes all the advantages I give to Oscar. The fight may be a very surprisingly tough fight for whoever wins.

Are there any fighters you see out there that you haven't trained, that you would like to train?
I like to train so much, there are a lot out there. I like Shane Mosley. I like even Vernon Forrest. All of those guys. Lennox Lewis was always one of those I wanted to train. That's why even though I had beaten him with Oliver McCall, when they asked me about it, I knew it was a challenge to me. I knew he was better than Oliver, but I knew I just had to teach Oliver one or two of those things to take advantage of Lennox's mistakes.

Are today's fighters easier or harder to train than the fighters from the past?
I would say that today's fighters are a different generation. They're all more into a lot more fame, worried about endorsements-maybe I've got to have a photo shoot today. I would say it's a different time and a different generation, whereas boxers back then weren't into that more. I can't say. Most of the kids I worked with back then were maybe a little easier. But I haven't had problems with any of my boxers. Boxers other people have had problems with-Oliver McCall-I haven't had trouble with any of them. Tommy Hearns was my favorite to train. Tommy was the type of guy that you'd be wrapping his hands and I'd go, "Tommy, how many rounds do you want to go today?" He'd say, "That's what I pay you for. You're the boss." He had that attitude. You'd say, "We're going to box seven rounds today." After seven, you could say, "I want to box six more." Tommy never would say anything. He'd never complain about anything-ever. He'd never say, "I don't want to box that guy. His style is bad for me." He never was that way.. And then he was always concerned about letting guys getting in their work before we got in the ring, or getting out of the way so someone else could use the bag. I never saw anyone so kind and considerate. He never wanted to train by himself. He wanted the whole team, everyone to train with him.

You've done it all. What is your final goal? What do you want to accomplish?
I would like to get this Olympic team back, for 2004 and 2008. That would be my biggest thing, because I've always had my heart in amateur boxing. And even though I work with one or two pros, I always, when I'm not broadcasting, I work or train kids for amateur tournaments.

How is working with Jim Lampley and Larry Merchant?
I am working with two really good guys, real legends. They have helped me along. They are good and they help me a lot, too. I'm so used to being a manger and a trainer, when I'm watching the fights I'll get off into studying the fights, and I should be talking about the broadcast and Jim Lampley will go, "So and So just got hit with three left hooks and a right. 'Manuel, what should he do?" He knows how to prompt me. With Larry Merchant, sometimes we'll rehearse something and I'll be ready to say something a certain way and Larry will say, "Why don't you say it another way?" He'll give me a little prompt sometimes. They've been very helpful to me.

Well, you're a fantastic addition to the HBO broadcasting crew, and I'm sure you will help get our amateur boxing program back where it should be. Thank you for your time.
Anytime.