WHY TRUNKED RADIO SYSTEMS (TRS) ARE BAD FOR PUBLIC SAFETY OPERATIONS
(On this page, the oldest info is at top. Everything is chronological - more or less.)
September 2002 - TRS do not allow field users to switch to repeater output freqs or to repeater input freqs in order to facilitate inbuilding coverage - TRS is a failed concept for public safety.
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The General Theory of TRS According To Zerg90
1. Trunked radio system (TRS) gear is very expensive - this causes skimping on coverage / tower sites.
2. TRS work well on the routine days, but it gives users the false impression that channels are limitless - wait till the big one hits!
3. 800 Mhz has short range - this requires many extra tower sites in comparison to other bands in order to provide minimal levels of service.
4. A jammer on the output or input of a control channel will probably put ALL users in an entire county off the air and the field units will never realize that they have lost all comms. (?Sept 2002 - near Milwaukee WI - was it Washington County?)
4A. If multiple units (on various talkgroups) try to talk at the same incident, they will not be able to access the system - because their request-to-talk chirps will drown each other out on the control channel's input side.
5. TRS does NOT degrade gracefully. If you lose just 1 antenna/tower site, then all radio communications in the area are lost - and there is probably no way to notify field units that the system is down, or to notify units to switch to another site (if one is available).(Sept 11, 2001 - WTC)
6. TRS usually stop working as soon as you hit the city or county limits - it will cost BILLIONS of dollars to get just one 800 Mhz channel that will provide nationwide, in-building coverage for portable radios.
6A. TRS seem to stop working as soon as a thunderstorm approaches the area - I have read about three seperate reports in early 1998 about various TRS failing when T-storms passed through Atlanta, Conroe TX, and ??-cant think of the other one.
7. TRS seem to attract lots of skulldugery - check out the news reports on the Birmingham AL and Kansas City TRS systems. (And Wash DC FD - 2002)
8. TRS do not prevent doubling! ("Doubling" is when two people try to talk at the same time and neither message gets through.)
typed up 7/6/98 by Peter Szerlag - added couple things Sept 2002
the URL for this item�is www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/3327/trsbad.html
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July 20, 1998 - ADDITIONAL THOUGHT - What everyone really needs is a radio system which substantially cuts down on the doubling between field units. When police units get into a intense situation, everyone tries to transmit at the same time and NO messages get through. Fire and EMS are the same. In fact, the worst avaition disaster of all time, at Tenerife Airport, was partially caused by doubling. Around 500 people died in this disaster. I believe that a technical fix is possible for this problem. All someone has to do is marry the "busy channel lockout" feature which is now available with a "emergency overide" feature.
Note - In Feb 2000 and March 2000 I made multiple posts to project25@list.com on this subject.
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09 Oct 00 - I made posts in various places during September 00 about the need for a Out of Range Overide Feature (see fireradio@onelist.com for more details)
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April 2, 1999 - Seattle 800T fails - big cocaine bust goes bad - see NWScan
April 15, 1999 - The new Natl Fire Protection Assoc document 1221 (Comm Centers) contains new info about trunked radio systems. My concerns about doubling and emergency situations have been addressed to a certain degree. Go to www.nfpa.org - look under Proposals and Standards - select NFPA 1221. (April 2000 update - you probably have to buy this document in order to see it now.)
April 16, 1999 - The March 1999 edition of QST Magazine on page 78 tells how Hurricane George blew the public safety trunked radio system for Saba Island off the face of the earth thereby rendering all public safety radios useless.
May 9, 1999 - Here is a site that deals with all the 800T troubles experienced by one Pennsylvania county.�Bucks County PN�
May 25, 1999 - Cleveland Ohio - the city's $43 milliom 800Mhz trunked radio system suffered a complete failure for 11 minutes starting at 1132AM - when the Failsoft kicked in, radio comms were in total chaos for 2 hours - messages were scrambled - no one could hear each other - fire units were on police channels - one police officer lost all comms just as he was about to pull over a possible stolen car - the car dissappeared during all the radio confusion - this info is from a big article in a small Cleveland paper on ?7/3/99 about the bad relations between the Cleveland PD and the mayor. (this was the ?first complete failure for the radio system which has been in operation since ?1994 (?actually 1997) - there had been sporadic losses of single channels at various times beforehand.
May 29, 1999 - Cockrell Hills TX recently had a police car crash that killed a 20 year old police officer - her 22 year old partner/driver was chasing a car and went thru a red light at 60 MPH - when he swerved to miss a car in the intersection, the cruiser intersected with a pole. News reports are mulling the fact that Cockrell Hills does not use a "police" trunked radio system - they just use a "plain" trunked radio system. Supposedly this difference allowed their pursuit message to be doubled off the air and no other officers were aware of the pursuit. The pursuit lasted between 2 and 3 miles. I find it incredibly hard to believe that the radio system had anything at all to do with this fiasco. Even if they had activated an emergency button, and insured that no one could transmit over them, I suspect that no one in this PD would ever admit that they heard anything at all on their radio system. (OF COURSE THIS PD DOES NOT TAPE THEIR RADIO TRAFFIC).
May 29, 1999 - TRS turns Police Chiefs and Fire Chiefs into blatant liars - witness Philadelphia - the Police Chief just testified that they need 800T to thwart drug dealers who listen to undercover drug cops - I guess that the drug cops in Philly are too inept to use code words on the radio - the Fire Chief testified before the City Council that the new 800T system will work better in buildings and provide better coord between police and fire units - TOTAL LOAD OF CRAP! (I take that back - a HALF a load of crap - when was the last time that you heard a police or fire unit sending a message to a unit of the other agency? - they never do it because it is a pain - AND - because it seldom is truly required).
TRS have profound implications regarding governmental secrecy - please see �Legal / TRS Webpage�
If someone really wants to improve their radio system they can check this site which deals with advanced modulation techniques - �Advanced Linear Modulation�
Please also read my new file on this website which is titled "PUBLIC SAFETY MODULATION TECHNIQUES".
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Here is a great website that has extensive information about the pitfalls of trunked radio systems due to their incompatibility with open government.
www.opeNNess.org - the new name for David Pinero's site - ?Feb 2000
David Pinero's Open Broadcasting Website
or try - Dave Pinero's Site - go down to the Open Broadcasting button. (?defunct)
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6/6/99 - per Warren Whitby 800T website - Jackson MS must spend $1.5 million to fix its EDACS radio system by 1/2000 - dont have the money - may move to Hinds County motorola 800T system
6/11/99 CARMA @ qth.net - Illinois State Police in Chicago lost their North EDACS system due to a lightning strike - they lost the system about a year ago also when a helo hoisted a air conditioner thru the microwave backbone link path and knocked the system down for an hour until a radio tech could reset it.
6/14/99 - on rec.radio.scanner newsgroup - Centre County PN got 800T - radio studies were done in winter when no leaves were on trees - now in the Summer of 1999, multiple radio dead spots exist because all of the trees have leaves on them - San Bernardino CA - 800T system does not work inside buildings
6/16/99 - San Diego 800T goes into failsafe for 30 minutes - all FD ops done on 1 channel - all PD ops done on 7 channels - info from SoCalScan Email list - turns out that this was a planned ?Y2K exercise - someone forgot to tell the PDs, but the FD knew about it beforehand.
per the 7/8/99 The Colony Times - Denton County TX is upgrading their 800T system - for $1.6 million Motorola is improving the main site at the Sheriff Office and adding new towers at Aubrey and Grapeview/Flower Mound in order to give 98% coverage (on the street it might be 98% - inside buildings it is probably 30%)
The Seattle WA FD website has info about the improvements made to their 800T system when the police started using the system in 1997 - a 3rd tower was added and the system switched from Smart Zone to simulcast (another low bid special). As of August 1999, they are apparently up to 9 sites now.
July 26, 1999 - Roseville CA is moving to a 800T radio system - the FD was on the system for one week then they went back to their old 150Mhz radios
July 25, 1999 - Suffolk Co NY EDACS 800T system down from 1300 to 1315 - then off and on 3 or 4 times - unknown cause
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If you want to read a few items about 800T systems please go to these URLs - www.geocities.com/vienna/opera/2115/8001.html also 8002.html also 8003.html also 8004.html also 8005.html
Item 1 - gospel according to Steve
Item 2 - Ripoff in Longview TX
Cockrell Hills TX PD radio system versus police officer killed in crash
Item 5 - posts on www.firehouse.com
Item 6 - again Cockrell Hill TX
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Delaware 800T System Problems - August 1999
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Colorado Radio Problems - October 1999
Did anyone else monitor this pursuit tonight? What a frequency flail.
Denver started it NB I-25 about Hampden (Den-800) and some CLEER (460.425) traffic, then CSP 1D (154.920) and they kept it on their main troop freq cause there was no common channel with Denver, then Thornton and ACSO get involved still no common channel so remained 154.920, then 2 cars from Westy to join the orgy just to help but now another 800 agency with no VHF or UHF in the cars. Then into the 3A troop and some 154.935 traffic, NLEC 154.475 was mentioned but Thornton, Denver, Westy, ACSO who are all now following have no VHF abilities so CSP State 3 154.905 is decided on to allow all CSP cars coordination but "leave" the others out.
Continued NB on State 3 which is working fine for car to car but Denver dispatch is beginning to not be able to hear the mobile units finally almost an hour later stop sticks are deployed, and actually work, at MM-250 the CO-56 Berthoud exit.
But a statewide digital trunked apco 25 system will solve all problems! not...
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Group:alt.emergency.services.dispatcher Subject:Re: Trunking Date: Wed, Mar 10, 1999, 11:47pm[PS-minor spelling corrections made - 20Dec00]XXX wrote : Just wondering if anyone out there has any bad experiences with any type of trunking system? If so if you could advise what type of system and what the problem was.
Reply
There are many public safety trunked systems that operate without any problems. To say any one TYPE or MANUFACTURER has inherent problems over another is an unfair assumption. In nearly all cases, a system failure can be attributed to: 1) poor engineering - signal level too low for portable radio use 2) good engineering, but poor decisions on how to comply with recommendations of the engineers due to either a money shortfall or favoring a "convenient" site over a site that was called for in engineering studies (i.e.: "The engineer says there should be a 500 ft. tower built on the hill, but the courthouse is 2 miles away and has a 180 ft. tower - let's use that instead.") 3) Installation problems - vendor compromised on materials to make a sales margin, or wrong type of antennas were installed 4) fleet mapping issues where there are more regional users than available "zoned" channels. For example: The system was engineered for eleven repeaters and a zone in an outer area that is sparsely populated has three repeaters, the system manager wants 6 talk groups to go system wide, there can be situations where a unit in the area will never be able to access a channel when superfluous traffic is keeping them busy! 5) patching schemes from 800 to VHF with half of the units on VHF and half on 800 (without voice and signalling delays, patching DOES NOT WORK AT ALL!!!) 6) attempting to use radios in an in-building tactical or fireground evolution in trunked mode rather than on a simplex fequency (signal levels in buildings can be extremely low and you may get into a situation where you are literally looking at the other person and cannot use your radios to talk because you can't receive a control channel or are too far away from the site to use the system). 7) expecting one site to cover your entire jurisdiction 8) not enacting ordinances allowing municipal communications systems on telecommunications towers or highrise buildings 9) not enacting ordinances requiring all new construction to be built so that signal levels are at adequate levels inside the structure - and if they are not, requiring the developer/ owner to install a distributed antenna/ leaky coax "booster" system on your frequencies to allow use. 10) equipment that functions well on its own but constructed as part of a large (and unproven) network. Lost audio, slow channel assignment and funky audio frequency response result. 11) a poor request for proposal or bid spec (you get literally what you ask for - if what you asked for is half-assed, the vendor will supply a half-assed system). 12) someone who had no concept of how the system operates signed off acceptance on the system. 13) failure to create redundant systems and only relying on soft failure modes to float the system. 14) improper alignment (critical for simulcast systems). 15) lack of preventative maintenance. 16) poor or no planning. No anticipation of future growth. 17) slick, unscrupulous sales people. 18) total trust in any one person (read: administrator & consultant), group, vendor or manufacturer who can walk away from a problem and who leaves you and field personnel holding the bag. I'm sure I've left a few out - but these are problems with the "human element."
It is very rare to see a problem based on a failure of trunking protocol or signalling, except that the faster the data baud rate, the faster a channel grant handshake will be.
Question - We are looking into a new trunking system and are looking for some problems that others have had with any type of agency or equipment.
Reply
There are lots of potential problems, but then again, there are many places that are using trunking technology with less problems than what they used to have on conventional channels in another band. To generalize and say it simply doesn't work or assume there will be a problem is incorrect. Like everything else in life, failure to exercise due dilligence and careful control over every aspect will cause a lot of trouble for everyone (mostly those "stuck" with a one-lunged system).
This is an area where employee (responder)/ telecommunicator committees should be used to make decisions! Caveat emptor.
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Lewisville/Grapevine Texas TRS Problems - 11 Dec 99
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January 2000 or Thereabouts
This 1 Dec 99 Article Deals with Bucks County PA Move to a 500Mhz TRS - county gave loans to locals so they could afford the new radios
10 Dec 99 - Austin Radio Newspaper Article # 1
Dec 99 - Austin Radio Newspaper Article # 2
FIND PHILLY ARTICLE - it aint at /zerg90
The Austin article dealt with the myriad of problems in planning the new system. The Philly article concentrated more on the loss of public access to the system. [I need to find the Philly article and link it in - Oct 2000 - been saying that since Jan 2000]
(There was a problem with the Philly article - Kansas City did not have a Motorola system. Motorola harped all about that error.)
Here is a article about the May 2000 awarding of Austin's radio contract. Austin Picks Motorola
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Miami Herald - Feb 2000 - Florida Hiway Patrol troopers afraid to make traffic stops because they have no faith in their APCO25 digital TRS - here is the Miami Herald article
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Portland OR lost their 800TRS for ?30 minutes on March ?28, 2000. Data/mdt was OK but ?all 2way verbal comms were lost. See the NWscan email list for info.
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Radio Coverage Problems with Atlanta's TRS
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Dead Spots in Anne Arundel County Maryland (+ Baltimore County) - March 2000
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This info is from the archive search feature of the Portland Maine newspaper at www.portland.com.
NEW RADIO SYSTEM WAS MEANT TO END THE ERA OF DEAD ZONES UNTIL THE FLAW IS CORRECTED, FIREFIGHTERS REMAIN AT RISK. Published on Monday, March 20, 2000 ���Page: 6A � 2000 Blethen Maine Newspapers, Inc.
When city officials urged Portland voters to approve a $2.2 million bond in 1997, they said the money would be spent on a new emergency radio system that would overcome a serious bug in the old system: "dead zones" in which topography or buildings interfered with radio communications. These zones put firefighters in danger. Without the ability to communicate by radio, firefighters can easily become lost in smoke-filled buildings. Voters agreed and approved the bond. Caption: PHOTO: b&w File photo Portland's firefighters need radios that are reliable every time -- and every where. Complete Article, 199 words
FIREFIGHTERS CAN'T RELY ON THEIR NEW RADIO LIFELINE AFTER A YEAR OF PROBLEMS, PORTLAND WILL INSTALL EQUIPMENT TO FIX COMMUNICATIONS GAPS. Published on Friday, March 17, 2000 ���Page: 1A � 2000 Blethen Maine Newspapers, Inc.
Byline: By STEVEN G. VEGH Staff Writer When buildings burn, firefighters stake their lives on the reliability of their radios. "We're operating in very dangerous conditions, conditions of low visibility, high heat," said John Cannon, a Portland firefighter. "We could be in trouble very quickly, in seconds, without warning, and we need a way to tell people we need rescue, for ourself or another firefighter or an occupant." Complete Article, 1352 words
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Fire Dept Trunked Radio Systems - an overview of various systems in various cities
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August 2000
Chester Co PA 800TRS Problems from http://dailylocal.com
August 2000 - Wash Co OR lost 800TRS twice in 1 week
August 2000 - Radio Resource Magazine - March tornado in Fort Worth TX nearly crippled cities telecom system and emerg mgmt response - page 96
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October 2000
Montgomery County PA TRS Problems - 08 June 2000
June 2000 Article About Orange County CA TRS Problems
7 July 2000 Article About Orange County CA TRS Problems
Editorial In LA Times - 13 August 2000
Honolulu Police Union Runs Radio Ads Complaining About Bad Radios - 29 Septenber 2000
Note to self - FIND THE SYNOPSIS ON THE KANSAS CITY VERDICTS - also add PITTSBURGH 800TRS INFO (early 800TRS failure) [it is listed at 45peter/PA.html]- also add MOTOROLA BOOTED OUT OF FL articles from ?Sept 2000 - add LA Times article about weak signals in buildings
Also see the firerad2 list, the fireradio list, and the sonofrcma list at www.yahoogroups.com for more up to date info - www.scanboston.com had a big list of bad TRS articles in 2002
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November 2000 + December 2000
Please click here to continue to trsbad2.html for the latest info
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Last Update - May 9, 1999 - May 28, 1999 - 6/14/99 - 7/9/99 - 8/16/99 - 8/29/99 - 10/17/99 - 3 April 2000 - 12Apr00 - 15Apr00 - 15Aug00 - Oct00 ("according to zerg" - the phrase) - 14Oct00 - HI - 25Oct00 - LA Times editorial - 14Nov00 - trsbad2 - 20Dec00 - minor changes
If I have wrongly included anyones Email address or URL here, and that causes a concern, please let me know. I feel that I need to include these names and URLs in order to adequately make my points. Since all of the items came from various public forums on the Internet, I am reasonably sure that I am not overly compromising anyone's privacy. I am totally thankful for all of the info that folks have placed on the Internet. Peter S - 3 April 2000
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